tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post8891976718861494995..comments2018-07-26T20:07:47.821-07:00Comments on What Your Rabbi Didn't Tell You: A Man's Prohibition Doth Not Create A Woman's ObligationChuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-24609351817006968892009-02-26T12:57:00.000-08:002009-02-26T12:57:00.000-08:00Thank you, Chuck. I guess I should talk less and g...Thank you, Chuck. I guess I should talk less and go back to learning more first...;).<BR/><BR/>Still, with regard to what you wrote:<BR/><BR/>1)Does everybody play by these rules? I.e., if arguments are well grounded, does everybody accept them? It doesn't seem that way. There are still different shitor, right? Even in areas such as Shabbat, kashrut etc.. So (the mechanism of) logic itself is not enough, which I guess proves what you stated in the first place - that other factors/considerations are involved.<BR/><BR/>2+3) So refreshing and reassuring to hear. Obviously, some very basic foundations (whichever they are) probably cannot be "played with", and they must be the coherent part, but I guess that still leaves a lot of room for development, history, external influences etc..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-9368017890858600262009-02-26T11:12:00.000-08:002009-02-26T11:12:00.000-08:00Here are my thoughts on your questions:1) It doesn...Here are my thoughts on your questions:<BR/><BR/>1) It doesn't matter who is and isn't serious. What matters is what is said and how well grounded it is rather than who said it.<BR/><BR/>2) The degree of coherence is not easily defined<BR/><BR/>3) Whether and to what extent Halacha should or shouldn't be coherent is a matter of debate. R. Sherlo wrote an excellent book on this subject entitled והלכה כבית הילל.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-22790205615197548342009-02-26T10:40:00.000-08:002009-02-26T10:40:00.000-08:00To further learn, who decides who are the serious,...To further learn, who decides who are the serious, authorized Rabbanim that have the mandate to interpret the Halachic canon (e.g. Shulchan Aruch) with consideration of those bazillion factors? And since Rabbis from different worlds will interpret differently, how does Halacha maintain any kind of coherence? And does it have to?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-66206382828515844652009-02-26T04:22:00.000-08:002009-02-26T04:22:00.000-08:00Tzitz Eliezer 9:50 rules that it is permissible no...Tzitz Eliezer 9:50 rules that it is permissible nowadays to walk behind a woman even though the Shulhan Arukh clearly rules that doing so does not fit the category of מאד מאד.<BR/><BR/>So, according to that responsum, either the definition of מאד מאד has changed or we no longer have to stay so far far away.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-70322324873366886142009-02-26T02:13:00.000-08:002009-02-26T02:13:00.000-08:00Chuck, I would be interested if you could provide ...Chuck, I would be interested if you could provide some examples which, in your opinion, satisfy the Shulchan Aruchs requirements of מאד מאד, and yet factor in common society norms without being extreem. Choose from amongst the your society, or another that you are intimately familiar with, and find approving.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-16226478879773071402009-02-25T10:55:00.000-08:002009-02-25T10:55:00.000-08:00We should also not allow a myopic focus on any one...We should also not allow a myopic focus on any one factor distract us from the bigger picture.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-39219193067156702422009-02-25T10:20:00.000-08:002009-02-25T10:20:00.000-08:00And we cannot allow a bazillion factors to complet...And we cannot allow a bazillion factors to completely distract us from the Shulchan Aruch.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-91640359005874095502009-02-25T09:39:00.000-08:002009-02-25T09:39:00.000-08:00No one is denying the words of the Shulhan Arukh.T...No one is denying the words of the Shulhan Arukh.<BR/><BR/>Those words must be considered among a bazillion other factors in real life.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-25034378359432564842009-02-25T08:42:00.000-08:002009-02-25T08:42:00.000-08:00I haven't 'given up'. But I'm only going to write ...I haven't 'given up'. But I'm only going to write when I have something to say.<BR/><BR/>Now that I'm here, it is worth mentioning that while as Chuck correctly says, that society norms are influencial, we cannot deny the words of the Shulchan Aruch.<BR/><BR/>Our 'distances' are perhaps not the same as 'distances' of other generations are societies, but we still must be can our distances - מאד מאד.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-23494355483669323102009-02-24T10:59:00.000-08:002009-02-24T10:59:00.000-08:00Wonderful! Thanks so much. Finally, normalcy. This...Wonderful! Thanks so much. Finally, normalcy. This is the first source I've seen, that takes this tone. I've read a bit about "al tarbe" in popular tshvuot, and in some other sources, and the orientation was always very cautionary and terrified (as I heard it).<BR/>Yishar kochacha, Chuck!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-60162563422970344722009-02-24T10:22:00.000-08:002009-02-24T10:22:00.000-08:00Don't let the fundamentalists get you down. I have...Don't let the fundamentalists get you down. I have much to write about this.<BR/><BR/>In the meantime, take a look at what R. Henkin wrote about אל תרבה שיחה<BR/><BR/>"האמנם צריך "לספור את המלים" בדיבור בנים עם בנות? לכאורה, מקורו איתן במסכת ערובין (נג:), כפי שציין. מסופר שם: רבי יוסי הגלילי הוה קא אזיל באורחא (היה הולך בדרך). אשכחה (מצא את) לברוריה. אמר לה: באיזו דרך נלך ללוד? אמרה ליה: גלילי שוטה! לא כך אמרו חכמים 'אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה'? היה לך לומר 'באיזו ללוד?'<BR/>הרי שבמקום שאפשר להסתפק באמירת שתי מלים לאשה, אין להאריך בארבע. ברם, מי שמפרש כן בדברי ברוריה, יתקשה להסביר את לשונה הבוטה "גלילי שוטה!". אין זה סגנון המקובל אצל חכמים המעירים זה לזה בהלכה... אלא לא לכך התכוונה ברוריה. נתבונן בדוגמה הבאה: אתה מטייל בחוצות בניו יורק, לפני שנים, ולפתע אתה נתקל ברב סולובייצ'יק. אתה אומר לו, 'הרב סולובייצ'יק, תגיד לי, איפה כאן הרכבת התחתית?'. פגשת את גדול הדור, וכל מה שיש לך בפיך הוא לשאול 'איפה כאן הרכבת התחתית?', אולי תשאל אותו משהו בנושא תורני? <BR/>זו היתה כוונתה של ברוריה. היא היתה מפורסמת בחכמתה, אשה ששיננה בכל יום 300 הלכות מ 300 בעלי שמועה כמסופר בפסחים (סב:), וכל מה שהיה לרבי יוסי לומר היה לבקש ממנה להראות לו את הדרך? אם כן, כך השיבה לו, אם אתה מקפיד כל כך שלא לדבר עם נשים, תלך בגישה זו את עד לקצה האחרון שלה. אל תאמר 'באיזו דרך נלך ללוד' בארבע מילים, כשאפשר לומר 'באיזה ללוד' בשתי מילים בלבד! <BR/>נמצא שברוריה לא דגלה ב"ספירת מלים" בשיחה בין אנשים לנשים, אלא להיפך. היא טענה נגד רבי יוסי בדרך של ההבאה אל האבסורד: אם אתה, רבי יוסי, קיצוני עד כדי כך בהימנעותך מלדבר עם נשים, עד שאינך משוחח עמי אפילו בדברי תורה, אם כן גם בהוראות הדרך יש לך להמעיט ככל שניתן ולספור את המלים. וזהו האבסורד, שגם רבי יוסי יודה בו, כי אף אחד, כולל רבי יוסי, אינו סופר מלים. וכנראה ברוריה נעלבה ונפגעה מכך שרבי יוסי הגלילי לא התייחס אליה כאל ת"ח, ולכן הגיבה בחריפות רבה, "גלילי שוטה!" צריך להימנע מהכללות גורפות בעניינים אלה... בעצם ההתייחסות לנשים חל שינוי בהלכה במשך הדורות, לפי המציאות ההולכת וגוברת של הרגל נשים להיות בין האנשים, כדברי ה"לבוש" (סוף אורח חיים), ובניגוד לימי חז"ל שאז נשים היו מסתגרות יותר בבית. וכתב רבו המהרש"ל ב"ים של שלמה" (קדושין פרק ד, כה): "...על זה סומכים כל העולם, שמשתמשים ומדברים ומסתכלים בנשים".Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-30779196252600071392009-02-24T09:59:00.000-08:002009-02-24T09:59:00.000-08:00Thank you very much. Very enlightening and comfort...Thank you very much. Very enlightening and comforting. I will look up this book. <BR/>Also time to go back to Rav Soloveitchik's Ish Hahalacha, which I never finished, but was wonderful (besides everything else) in highlighting complexity and depth of the halachic process.<BR/>Thanks again.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-67339367133509043822009-02-24T09:43:00.000-08:002009-02-24T09:43:00.000-08:00Practical Halakha cannot be found in a book. The b...Practical Halakha cannot be found in a book. The books look at a certain specific halakha in a theoretical vacuum. But real life does not exist in a vacuum. In any given real-life situation, there are countless halakhot, values and realities, often competing, and always interacting in an extremely complex system.<BR/><BR/>It's soft of like macro-economics. For example, if all other factors are held constant, then increased demand will result in higher price. But in reality, nothing is held constant. There are a bazillion factors at play in a fascinatingly complex reality.<BR/><BR/>The same is true for Halakha. The books look at single factors, not the big picture. The latter can not be dealt with in a book.<BR/><BR/>The big picture is comprised of a bazillion factors, including the sensitivities of human emotions.<BR/><BR/>Besides that, the Shulhan Arukh is most definitely not the final word even in theoretical Halakha. Not even close.<BR/><BR/>There is a book by Daniel Sperber entitled דרכה של הלכה, which is definitely worth a read.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-49377398665627028612009-02-24T09:13:00.000-08:002009-02-24T09:13:00.000-08:00Just start with צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים א מאד מאד e...Just start with<BR/> צריך אדם להתרחק מהנשים א מאד מאד etc.. etc.. Again, women's very presence is something men apparently have to work very hard to deal with satisfactorily.<BR/>ואסור לשחוק עמה, להקל ראשו כנגדה , which of course touches upon the very "challenging" ואל תרבה שיחה עם האשה from Pirkei Avot.<BR/>It's not your fault, Chuck, it's Halacha. I just don't deal well with it at present (maybe I should look for another religion...) And what do you mean regarding "accepted norms"? How much freedom do we have in negotiating the Shulchan Aruch? I'd be happy to learn that we do, but maybe I better just stay out of this for the sake of peace.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-70317380760066065962009-02-24T08:48:00.000-08:002009-02-24T08:48:00.000-08:00I'm not sure what's difficult in the passage I bro...I'm not sure what's difficult in the passage I brought from the Shulhan Arukh, but, at any rate, much of this is subject to accepted social norms and those of the Shulhan Arukh are not necessarily those of contemporary Israeli society.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-67717193632875845492009-02-24T07:50:00.000-08:002009-02-24T07:50:00.000-08:00Despite Chuck's effort to ameliorate... Hilchot Is...Despite Chuck's effort to ameliorate... Hilchot Ishut in Shulchan Aruch, which Chuck quotes, speak for themselves. I've forgotten how, um, difficult they are.<BR/>I guess I'm out of here. Too tough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-72896107061763645302009-02-24T00:34:00.000-08:002009-02-24T00:34:00.000-08:00Looks like Hamasig has given up on you :-).BTW, I ...Looks like Hamasig has given up on you :-).<BR/><BR/>BTW, I think you will find plenty who have ruled ("correctly" or "incorrectly") against women wearing colored clothing (particularly red clothing) and even showing their little fingers.Rafi (S)https://www.blogger.com/profile/18103892755392538611noreply@blogger.com