tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post8761458990289035146..comments2018-07-26T20:07:47.821-07:00Comments on What Your Rabbi Didn't Tell You: Raisins Not Kosher??Chuckhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-79425690087193658092009-02-17T12:20:00.000-08:002009-02-17T12:20:00.000-08:00Chuck, I assume you saw this: www.kashrut.com/Aler...Chuck, I assume you saw this: www.kashrut.com/Alerts/?alert=A2642Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-8827683145093018182009-02-14T10:51:00.000-08:002009-02-14T10:51:00.000-08:00No sir. The Aruch HaShulchan's author explicitly s...No sir. The Aruch HaShulchan's author explicitly said that a Rabbi should assume that whatever question he is asked, even if a d'oraita question, should be assumed permitted. Only after going through the rishonim and not finding "eizeh tzad heter" should you prohibit. <BR/><BR/>If you think that the consequences of a pesak should not "interfere" with the decision making process, I really hope that no one is asking you she'eilot. Life is complex. The answers to real life questions do not exist in the shulchan arukh, which has answers only for questions that exist under no mitigating circumstances. Most real life questions have multiple competing Halakhot/values at play ... i.e., mitigating factors.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-39851399851334273882009-02-12T13:04:00.000-08:002009-02-12T13:04:00.000-08:001) The Taz says that there is no need, even lachat...1) The Taz says that there is no need, even lachatchila to check. KAJ did. However, where one did check, and found bugs, the food is ossur.<BR/>2) The KAJ issued a <A> clarification </A> where they state: <I>Various brands of raisins were checked and found to be infested, including some originating from abroad... I believe that in the future supervision on the production of raisins will -as a matter of course- include checking for infestation by many kashrus agencies. Given the recent publicity on the matter, it is likely that raisins will become standardized as an item checked for infestation in line with strawberries and vegetables which need checking, for instance.</I><BR/>The last part of this statement does not appear to be according to the Taz.<BR/>3) The OU issued a <A>statement</A>: <I>The OU have long maintained that raisins packed and stored under normal industry conditions do not pose a halachic infestation concern and may be consumed without further checking on the part of the consumer.<BR/>Recent public reporting of widespread infestation in packaged raisins has led the OU to reexamine its prior held position vis-à-vis raisins. Following careful investigation, extensive testing and consultation with our Halachic authorities, the OU upholds its original position that raisins, when stored under normal conditions (cool, dry and clean environments) do not require checking for the presence of worms or insects. (עיין בט"ז יו"ד פד, יב)</I><BR/>4) The Taz is clearly discussing a case where we know that there was no reinfestation from another external source, subsequent to picking. His only issue is if to check from bugs that arrived prior to picking. The logic of he Taz simply doesn’t work otherwise.<BR/>It seems to me that there is no machloket between the OU and KAJ on the Taz. They all agree that there is no need to check any raisins where WE KNOW that the bugs did not come from outside after picking. The OU maintains “<I> maintained that raisins packed and stored under normal industry conditions do not pose a halachic infestation concern</I>”, i.e. we can be fully confident that reinfestation did not occur. The KAJ however believe, based on their investigation that it does indeed happen. Therefore, under present industrial circumstances, there is source for confidence that the bugs can’t get in later.<BR/>I cannot be certain that these are their positions, but it seems to me to be most likely.<BR/>5) The Oruch Hashulchan is criticizing those who have decided the halocho based on gut, which causes them to arrive at an incorrect psak. He is not suggesting allowing the consequences of the psak to interfere with the decision making process. He is certainly not discussing how to deal with cases of safek.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-20924701031232019492009-02-12T04:04:00.000-08:002009-02-12T04:04:00.000-08:00But Taz and others held otherwise. According to hi...But Taz and others held otherwise. According to him, yes ... raisins have insect issues. But since these issues develop after harvesting, they need not even be checked. This is exactly the position of the O-U, which I posted in the original post.<BR/><BR/>Read KAJ's announcement. They did not refer to specific brands. They said "no raisins of any brand or hoshgocho may be used." That is irresponsible.<BR/><BR/>The livelihood of others is ALWAYS an issue. Read the Sarei HaMeah I quoted.<BR/><BR/>If the product is clearly prohibited, like pork, then that prohibition will take precedence over the producer's livelihood.<BR/><BR/>Raisins are not as clear as pork. Most Halakhic issues in life must be assessed from a broad perspective that takes into account conflicting halakhot/values. My concern is that KAJ, and others of their ilk, look at many Halakhic issues in a vacuum and overlook the other side of the equation.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-89349017227314630992009-02-12T03:39:00.000-08:002009-02-12T03:39:00.000-08:00My point is that is irrelevant that the gemorah, s...My point is that is irrelevant that the gemorah, shulchan oruch, my grandparents or anyone else used to eat raisins. If they are currently infested, then they are currently infested.<BR/>KAJ investigated certain brands on the American market and determined that in their opinion, they are sufficiently infested as to be forbidden to eat. I dont believe that that would include Israeli brands. Nevertheless, once a producer is producingproducts that are forbidden to eat, his livelihood is not an issue.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-71479620864410382752009-02-11T22:38:00.000-08:002009-02-11T22:38:00.000-08:00Hamasig, I'm not sure I understand your question. ...Hamasig, I'm not sure I understand your question. The point is, KAJ announced that all raisins currently in the market are not kosher. The point of my posting is two fold: 1) that's ridiculous 2) it's irresponsible in that such an announcement could potentially harm the livelihood of raisin producers, without sufficient justification.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-57327282682275777132009-02-11T21:53:00.000-08:002009-02-11T21:53:00.000-08:00All raisins are now not not kosher, or have never ...All raisins are now not not kosher, or have never been kosher? Big difference.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-91377156202791351692009-02-11T19:52:00.000-08:002009-02-11T19:52:00.000-08:00I think you didn't read KAJ's announcement. It spe...I think you didn't read KAJ's announcement. It specifically said ALL raisins.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00946853119814997067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1712395447958701982.post-6210711952424610512009-02-11T12:52:00.000-08:002009-02-11T12:52:00.000-08:00Nobody is claiming that raisins have always been o...Nobody is claiming that raisins have always been ossur. KAJ claims to have investigated certain brands and found them to be infested.Hamasighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878878989698459250noreply@blogger.com